Leah: [00:00:00] Nikki, welcome to the Balancing Busy podcast. Everybody else that’s here, I’m so excited you’re here too. We are talking to the founder of Scrolling to Death, and so will you just give us a quick moment, introduce yourself, kind of share where this came from and mm-hmm. And what your mission is. 

Nicki: Sure. Uh, so Scrolling to Death is a podcast and also, um, turning into a lot more.

I just started a nonprofit, actually, I started another organization called Tech Safe Learning. ’cause I started worrying about school issued devices as my kids were getting older. Uh, anyway, I used to be a social media marketing executive, um, targeting people on social media and manipulating their decisions and, you know, was feeling really like that wasn’t making me feel good.

I also, at the time, hadn’t been on social media personally in three years that you said you haven’t been on social media really either, which is great. Yeah. Um, but I was loving that life and. Around that same time started researching, [00:01:00] uh, actually a surgeon general warning came out that year, I think it was 2023, and it said that kids who spend three or more hours a day on social media face double the risk of anxiety and depression.

And I re, I also saw that kids are on social media seven plus hours a day. And I was like, whoa, that’s kind of crazy. So I started digging in further and saw that. Suicide rates for young kids had been increasing, and that really aligned with us giving them access to smartphones and social media. And I thought like, why doesn’t every parent know these things?

And then I started learning about the stories of harm. So kids who have passed away because of something that happened. On social media or a design choice by the social media companies. And I felt like parents deserve to know this information so we can make the safest choice as possible. And that’s when scrolling to Death, the podcast started.

And that was, uh, late 2023. And I’ve done hundreds of episodes, um, mainly with parents who have experienced some sort of harm and wanna warn other parents and educate us, but also with experts [00:02:00] and attorneys and lawmakers and just trying to put a lot of effort into. Forcing the tech, forcing the tech companies to be safer so that we can allow our children to enjoy technology and not have to worry about them.

Leah: So that, okay. I wanna pull back to, yeah. That is just a fascinating number that the surgeon General had warned three hours mm-hmm. Can lead to depression and yet we both know that the average is double that, if not often triple that, right? That’s right. Right? Mm-hmm. So, I, I mean, we’re in, in. Super risk mm-hmm.

At that point, right? Yeah. And yet it’s, you’ve heard all the things I know you have, it’s so hard to pull them back and mm-hmm. And take away the phone if you’ve already given some of these things. And, and it’s just, it’s really hard as parents. And we we’re coming up on summer and I know that that always gets to be a very tricky time of year where a lot of parents are like.

Um, [00:03:00] they were in school, like I at least had them occupied Yeah. For X amount of hours. Mm-hmm. What’s your advice for coming into summertime? Mm-hmm. And making it a. Limited tech. I know there’s some that’ll even do tech free, but like mm-hmm. What are some strategies and ideas you have for for parents? 

Nicki: Yeah, so I think minimal is possible.

I mean, kids, it’s summer, no matter where you are, it’s probably sunny and you’re, or, or the weather’s nice enough where they should be outside, and so I would try, you know. I’m conservative with it. I would say do no tech during the week still. Like they can, they do not need to be on a sunny day sitting in front of the video game console.

And so it’s get outside. Um, if you’re not going to limit it entirely, it’s very, very strict. Time limits. These games were built to be so addictive. The more time your kids spend on there, the higher their risk of being contacted by a predator experiencing, experiencing terrible cyber, cyber bullying [00:04:00] or some other kind of harm.

So I would say limit the time to as, as, uh, small as possible if you are gonna let them on tech at all during the daytime. Um. I would say, you know, all year round, no tech in the bedrooms at nighttime. Um, I would say coordinating with other parents. So really having a united front on whatever you decide are your limits and trying to all be on the same page.

’cause you want your kids to be able to go to their friends’ house, but I. Or what are they doing at their friend’s house? Are they on those screens all day there? And so, um, maybe also taking some time to review your parental controls. So have you worked, um, with your internet company on the router level to block anything that you wouldn’t want your kids to have access?

To, uh, have you checked the device, uh, personal, uh, the device parental controls. So if it’s a gaming platform or an iPad or a phone, taking an another refreshed look at their parental controls. And then also, um, the, [00:05:00] the gaming platform controls or the social media platform controls. So there’s like layers of parental controls, but just spending like an.

An hour or two refreshing that going into the summer, because a lot of times an update will push through and there’ll be a bug and it doesn’t work anymore. Or they, there’s always changes. And so I would say take that time to refresh. That can, that can be a good protective, um, element for the summer. 

Leah: Hmm.

That, okay. These are all so good and I wanna, I wanna kind of narrow in on. I am in such agreement with you. The best thing for our kids is to be outside, is to be playing using their imaginations. Yeah. And even. Having enough time to get bored. And so, um, this is where the, the systems nerd in me is like, okay, but what are gonna be our systems so that we make sure mm-hmm.

That these things happen. Yeah. And so I can share a couple things that I’ve done, and I know you’ve, you know, heard of and done way more so it would be so fun to hear yours too. So yeah. One [00:06:00] thing that, my kids are all way older now, but when they were younger mm-hmm. One of the things that. Uh, is a mom quote that they absolutely despise, but mm-hmm.

I said it a lot was, you can’t be bored unless you’re boring. And so anytime they would try to say, I’m bored, I’d be like, can’t be bored unless you’re boring. Yeah. And you’re not boring. Mm-hmm. Um, but one of the things we would do is we would make a board list. And so, and I especially made sure I did this at the beginning of the summer where we would try to brainstorm out as many ideas of things they could do.

As possible that had nothing to do with screens. Mm-hmm. So we would just make this huge list and it would stay on the fridge. They could go look at it when they were like, I don’t know what to do. Go look at the list. Go see if, love that. If something, you know, sparks. Mm-hmm. The other thing I was thinking about, this is a conversation I’ve actually had with my sister quite a bit, um, with trying to regulate screen time.

Is that mm-hmm. You set a limit. So you say, okay, you can’t, you can’t be on Xbox more than 45 minutes. That’s it. Mm-hmm. You get 45 minutes and, and, and you’re done. But then. [00:07:00] She goes off, she’s doing chores, she’s working on a bunch of things. She doesn’t realize how much time has gone off. Mm-hmm. And they’re kids, let’s just be honest, they’re probably not the best at self-regulation.

Yeah. And so even just realizing this is such a simple little system, but there is a timer that’s going off that you are going to hear not just them. Right. Because they’re like, yeah, I mean, you know, we’ve all been tempted. They hear the time and they’re like, I’m just gonna. Gonna add a little more, a little more to that.

Yep. And so whether that’s your, your watch and you know, you’re gonna have that timer there, or one that everyone can hear through the house, but just some of those simple strategies mm-hmm. Because we can say all these things, but then you get into real life and you’re trying to get things done and it gets really hard.

And then I would love to ask you, because I feel like this has got to come up as a question for the, for the parents who have younger kids. Mm-hmm. So they’re like, yes, I would love for my child to be outside all day, but. That means I need to be outside all day and I have other things to do. Right. And [00:08:00] so, so talk me through your advice for that.

Nicki: Yeah, so a couple things came to mind, and I say boredom is an opportunity and they hate that, but I think it’s like you have to give them that opportunity to be bored because that’s where they get creative and they may complain and complain and complain, especially if your kid is on screens a lot and then you’re transitioning them to not be on screens a lot.

They needed time to like develop that muscle again of pushing past the boredom. So put in that time. I’m gonna 

Leah: interject really quick. Yeah. I will say I have consistency. Okay. So just so everybody knows, my kids now are 21, 19 17, okay? Mm-hmm. So we have gone through the whole age bracket of this. Mm-hmm.

And, and I have consistently found, and my sister, as we’ve talked about this, we both have said, this takes about two weeks. We all mess up. We start letting them have way too much screen time. Right. Like, life got busy, you got distracted. All of a sudden you’re like, whoa, we have been way too much screen.

We’re mm-hmm. We’re pulling this. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] And it. It takes about two weeks before they really get their creativity back. Yeah. Yeah. And are like, they have their own ideas of what to do, and they’re not just like stalking you around the house. Mm-hmm. ’cause they’re basically trying to wear you down. Yeah.

Right. And then what has been so fascinating is, okay, so we have about this two week window, then all of a sudden they’re doing great. Mm-hmm. So now we go two or three weeks where it’s like they have been doing phenomenal, but then they’ll come to you and they’ll be like, I’ve been barely doing it. Please can I, and then if you’re not.

So intentional and careful. Mm-hmm. You go right back into the loop again. 

Nicki: Yeah. But we know better, you know, you know better what’s gonna happen from there. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, it’s worth that dis making them disappointed. It’s worth disappointing them, you know? Yes. When doing that hard work. Um, but I would say that.

What came to me is, you know this, over the last couple decades, we’ve gotten real protective of our kids. We’re not letting them go play outside anymore, and uh, I interviewed an incredible woman named Lenore Kinese, and she has an organization called Let [00:10:00] Grow and a book as well. But she talks about the importance of letting your kids get outside independently screen free, not tracking them and letting them explore a little bit.

Is there a park around the corner? They can go to a neighbor’s house. 10 doors down. Like I know some parents are like letting their kids go to the store around the corner by themselves. So I would say parents, if you can let yourself be a little uncomfortable this summer and let your kids go a little further, explore a little further.

That gives them confidence and it really feels good for you once you get past that discomfort and they come home and they’re so proud of themselves because they did something that was a little bit uncomfortable. Um, you know, I’m having conversations in my personal life with some friends that. Their kid is, you know, 7, 8, 9, and they wanna get a watch for the summer for the kids so they can let them go and explore a little further out of the neighborhood or around the neighborhood.

And I totally get wanting to track your kid and make sure they can get ahold of [00:11:00] you, uh, in an emergency or if they get hurt. But I also want parents to think about. Once you give a device, it’s so hard to step back from that. Um, and there’s so many good lessons in your kid getting out and being in a situation that might be a little bit uncomfortable and having to rely on people around them, parents around them, your neighborhoods pri, most neighborhoods are very safe.

The odds of your kid getting. You know, kidnapped or whatever, like they’re way overstated. This is a very, very rare occurrence. And so there’s so much value in letting your kid explore, disconnected in a disconnected way, knowing, you know, make sure they know that they go to a, go to another parent, make sure they know.

I can knock on any door and ask for help if they need it, if they’re lost or whatever may come their way. Um, so I think that’s a, a good reminder is even if you have a young-ish kid, like let them play in the front yard. Let them knock on a neighbor’s door that might have a kid they can go play out [00:12:00] front.

Um, also. There’s a new product called Angel Q, which I really like because you, you talked about, you know, setting a timer. Now, angel Q is a, basically a safer internet browser and it’s available in the app store. But what I like about it is your kid can explore the internet in a really safe way, but they can also, which I don’t let my kids, but if you.

Choose this. They can go on YouTube or streaming like Disney Plus, and it’s like there’s a buffer between the bad content and so they’re, they’re more protected. And you can text from your phone and be like, tell the app to tell your kid that you want them off in five minutes and it’ll give them like a gentle reminder so it’s not coming from you.

It’s like coming from the technology, which I think is like an interesting approach. And somehow they accept that more and don’t do this big like outburst reaction. Um. So I think there’s, there’s coming to be safer options for our kids to enjoy technology in a non-addictive way [00:13:00] that the parents have a lot more control.

Uh, but we’re just like on the edge of that. So, um, there’s also thinking about like, what, what technology and what apps are your, is your kid accessing during the summer too, or at any point? 

Leah: Yes. So. You, you touched on, and I wanna kind of drive this home because I think mm-hmm. As moms, we need to be talking about this, this idea of letting our kids go out.

Yeah. Without us, I know we, it’s been ingrained in us that we’re bad parents if we do that. Mm-hmm. And that is just wrong. Mm-hmm. It is not true. It has been so over hyped, this idea that there’s danger everywhere. Yes. When statistically we’re safer than. Ever that right before the danger is on the internet.

It’s not in your neighborhood. Yeah. Right. And, and yet we, you know, we saw these videos, it was overly reported on the news, and it created this fear. I, I remember when my kids were really little, I would let ’em play in the backyard, but [00:14:00] I remember very much feeling like I would be a bad mom mm-hmm. If I had let them be in the front yard.

Yeah. And that was, that was wrong. Like, I wish I could go back because. And, and the whole neighborhood did that. And so even though there were kids, no one knew each other. I know. And they were playing together and it makes me 

Nicki: sad. 

Leah: Yeah. There’s, and 

Nicki: so yeah, there’s some stat, like your kid would have to be out front for fif 14 million years before they got kidnapped or something like that.

That’s how weird. It’s, oh, you see, you hear 

Leah: something like that and you’re like, maybe we need to pull back on that. And I think. Having these conversations with other parents. Mm-hmm. Being able to, you know, and everybody’s at their different comfort level. Right. And we wanna, we wanna honor that, but being, maybe being the trendsetter who’s being willing to get a little uncomfortable and to let our kids have these experiences, you know, you mentioned it.

It does create this confidence in them. Mm-hmm. And they feel so proud of themselves and so excited about what they’ve accomplished and Yeah. You know, you think back to, I can think back to my childhood [00:15:00] and I was like, oh my gosh. I was out all kinds of places. Mm-hmm. Miles from my house with no one knowing where we were.

And we were safe and we had a great time and we learned great things and we made up huge stories in our heads that someone was following us. It was never happening, but it sure made it. Feel more exciting as a little kid and yeah, I’m so grateful for those experiences. Yeah. And just because, and we see our kids afraid to like go into a grocery store by themselves.

Yeah. 

Nicki: And, and just because we have the option to strap a watch on them, does that mean we should, and we really need to think about what is that doing for them, for us? What problem is that solving? And is there any other solution? Because when you. Right. When you give them that tech, it just takes away from that independence that those lessons and those memories of being out really truly on your own, like your parent can’t get ahold of you, you can’t get ahold of your parent.

Those are some like core, uh, core things that you need to [00:16:00] build within yourself. I. That they’re missing out on. And we are seeing kids that are, are afraid to make phone calls, afraid to go into a store and speak to somebody afraid to, you know, not not getting jobs because they can’t do a job interview, a face-to-face connection.

Like it really builds into this bigger thing, these seemingly small choices at younger ages. 

Leah: Yes. It, I, I’m, of course my mind’s going to anxious generation to that book. Yeah. Um, which I think does such a great job really advocating for letting our kids have a little bit of. Safe danger, we’ll say. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Like, like these experiences. Mm-hmm. So have you by chance seen the show old enough on Netflix? 

Nicki: No. Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Leah: You have got to watch this. Okay. Everyone needs to watch just one. The episodes. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one more than 15 minutes. Okay. So everyone just has to watch one. So it is, um, it’s actually a show from Japan and so it’s gonna be subtitles the whole time, but it’s.

Little ones running their first errand. And when I say little ones, I [00:17:00] mean under five years old. Little ones. Uhhuh and I, so we, our family spent about six weeks in Japan a few years ago. Mm-hmm. And I remember vividly being in awe, being amazed ’cause I was watching. Little five year olds. Mm-hmm. They, I mean kindergartners, right?

Working the entire transit system. They are getting onto the train systems themselves. Uhhuh like, I mean, they might get on like there’s two or three of them, but then you see them each getting off at different stops and like they’re all in their little tiny school uniforms and they are walking through.

The streets. And this was, I mean, we were, we were quite a few different places in mm-hmm. In Japan. But this was in like Tokyo, like this is a crazy huge city. Yeah. And then it was also when, when we were out further in Osaka and, and some other places. Mm-hmm. And I, I mean, like, I, like I could not stop.

Watching and paying attention. ’cause I’m like, we would never do this in the [00:18:00] States. No, never. And why not? And so this show, right? Yeah. So this show, it’s them running their first area. And I’m telling you like, it is so inspiring. Yeah. Because you watch these little kids, you watch them get it wrong. Mm-hmm.

You watch them as they can’t remember what they were supposed to do. And these are big errands like. Go to the store and buy three things and they’re like three years old and we’re like, can you find your shoes? Right? Yeah. Like it’s, I mean, it’s just mind blowing and wow, you see them make mistakes. You see them get frustrated, get confused, go ask for help.

And then you see the elation when they get home. Mm-hmm. And they were successful. Yeah. And I’m like, okay, we need more of this in our parenting. So, yes. Yeah. It’s, it’s, um, on Netflix, it used to be called First Aaron, but now it’s called Old Enough. Okay. And it’s like back from like 1991. It’s. It’s so old and, but it is just, it is so cute and so inspiring.

Nicki: I’m surprised. I’m so surprised I haven’t heard of that yet. I will watch that. [00:19:00] And it sounds a lot like Leno Kin’s work that I mentioned and I have an interview with her that’s really fascinating and she actually let her son at. Nine years old, ride the subway in New York on his own and she, there was this whole press situation.

She got called the worst parents in America. Yeah. And she, she made this whole movement out of it, the importance of independence, play and free range. And I, I love it. And it’s hard for me too, you know, and already this conversation has me thinking, what are my kids gonna do this summer? There are not a lot of kids that go out front and play, but I know there are kids that, so I’m gonna be like, go find where the kids are and go play with them.

Go, I know three doors down, they have a basketball hoop in the front that they never use. Like go ask them if they can, you can use their basketball hoop. Like things like that. So I need, it’s good to prepare and, and make a list. I love that idea that you had. 

Leah: Right? I mean, just trying to make a plan because it really is true.

I, you know, I think about, I’m like, okay, no one in our neighborhood was in their front yards. Yeah. No one was, um. I mean, it [00:20:00] just, I didn’t feel like I had any help Yeah. In trying to figure this out. And I remember sending the kids over to a couple neighbors. Like I knew there were kids, I’d seen ’em in the car, like basically like going into the garage and out.

So I’m like, I know there’s kids over there and, um, you know, and I, and getting ’em to go knock on the door and. Which was really big and scary and mm-hmm. And I’ll be honest, I, you know, they didn’t, those kids didn’t quite, like, they didn’t hit it off. They were really busy and, and like, yeah. It didn’t quite work.

But I’m so glad that they tried. Mm-hmm. And I think that we have to think about that too, right? Like, it’s okay if it doesn’t work out. Mm-hmm. Like letting, letting them have these little, little mini. Quote unquote failures mm-hmm. Is actually going to make them more resilient. 

Nicki: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I have them in camps for about half the summer, but who has the money to spend on camps all summer?

Maybe some people. Yeah. But it’s, it’s expensive. And so there is a lot of home time and that can be seemingly easily [00:21:00] filled with technology and we have to get ahead of that. 

Leah: Absolutely. So what do you do? I mean, you have your podcast, you have work. Mm-hmm. It is not like you can be available all summer and part of it’s gonna be camps.

Mm-hmm. What do you do in that other, in that other time? 

Nicki: Great. So I set my alarm for about 5 24 in the morning and I work for about an hour, hour and a half before they wake up. Um, and sometimes they wake up and they know that they have till about 6 37 when I’m working, and that’s just when I’m gonna start making breakfast.

So, uh, that. Just adjusting my schedule. That would’ve sounded crazy to me. Maybe when my kids were a little bit younger and not all sleeping through the night and things were a bit more chaotic. But now it’s just a schedule where I go to bed with them by like 8 39, like I’m asleep. So that works really well the morning time.

Then I feel like I’ve already. Gotten a lot done. So now I, you know, feed them and I’m [00:22:00] getting them ready for now school. But during the summer I think it’s gonna be time blocking. I think it’s gonna be, they know that at this time we’re going to the community pool, but until then I am working. If it’s a call and my door’s closed, unless there’s an emergency, like you guys need to figure something out.

But I think it’s also getting outside of my comfort zone. There is a park, um, no, they have to cross a street, but it’s a little teeny neighborhood street and I’m gonna send them up to that playground at the park by themselves. I’m gonna commit to doing that. Um, I love that. Yeah. And then I think coordinating play dates is like, ugh, is a lot of work.

And then it’s so much 

Leah: work. I’m with you. 

Nicki: I know. I don’t think that’s gonna, there’s a lot of that that’s gonna happen. Um, so I think it’s the time blocking. It’s the. Making a list of options if they do run out of things that they could do. But I think with giving them a bit more freedom to get outside, I think that will really be helpful.

And my youngest is [00:23:00] still four and she will be in a preschool program most of the day. And so it is just my seven and 9-year-old who are more capable of. Exploring and getting into fun. Some safe trouble. 

Leah: Yes. Yes. And I think that that safe trouble. Mm-hmm. It really is. So power powerful. That’s what drives, yeah.

That true confidence. Mm-hmm. Is when we. Try something we didn’t know we could do, and we find out we can. Yeah, I know. It’s such an amazing feeling and we accidentally take that from our kids and I, I, I can look back, I can see where it came from. I, I didn’t want them to feel pain. I didn’t want them to be uncomfortable.

I wanted to help smooth the path I am reading. Oh gosh, I’m reading too many books. I always am reading several books at a time. Yeah. I think this is in Comfort crisis. Okay. It’s one of the books I’m reading right now, Uhhuh, and something that that he kind of said, mentioned in that book that I was like, oh my gosh.

So he was talking about how we used to be helicopter parents and we hovered. Mm-hmm. But now we’ve [00:24:00] become snowplow parents. Where we’re literally plowing the path in front of them. We don’t want anything in their way. Yeah. Nothing uncomfortable, nothing hard, like mm-hmm. We’re coming through and removing every obstacle beforehand.

And I was thinking about that. I’m like, that’s really true. There really has been this shift from what was once just hovering mm-hmm. Has actually taken on, uh, a next level and, and it’s not good. It’s, 

Nicki: no, 

Leah: we can all see that it hasn’t worked out well. 

Nicki: No, and I mean, think about when kids have devices at school too, and then they’re in any uncomfortable moment, they get a bad grade.

A kid’s being a little mean to them. Whatever they’re texting, their mom complaining about it and the mom’s comforting them. But those are really important things to just sit through and tell your mom when they pick you up. Like, and like this is just basic like skills that they need to get through life.

And yes, we’re taking it away from them by giving them the option of always reaching out. To us or just removing that, right? Removing that obstacle in the first place. 

Leah: And I’ll take that a step [00:25:00] further. It’s not only doing that, what everyone is going to end up realizing too late if you’re in this pattern.

Um, I. They’re being robbed of the opportunity to rely on friendships. Right? Yeah. So one of the things that we’re seeing is that there aren’t these strong friendships anymore. Mm-hmm. They all want it. They see it on the shows. They want their very best friend, but they’re not talking about the deep stuff.

Things stay very surface. They’re very, there’s, there’s this nervousness, especially in the tween teen years mm-hmm. To take a relationship from like a very casual. Snapchat or or texting conversation or just, hey, in class to actually hanging out. And those bonds happen When something happens and you share, you talk about it, you’re vulnerable.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. But if you don’t ever have to be vulnerable with classmates, because you can text your mom and tell her, and she’s your comfort, which, let’s be honest, we’re [00:26:00] pretty great at that job. So you know, they’re gonna. They’re gonna default to us. Yeah. Then they’re missing those deeper relationships and those opportunities at school with friends.

Nicki: Mm-hmm. And I’ll take that even a step further. Okay. One of the, a report I saw about, um, youth suicide actually talked about preventative factors and it. Recommended. One of the factors that’s important to their mental health, um, for young kids is having a bond and a relationship with an adult at school.

So that’s be teacher or a counselor or the principal, someone that your child feels like they can go to and have and talk about these things is really an important factor. And that kind of like a light bulb went off, like I, I don’t think. A lot of kids have that anymore with the constant distractions at school not, and not feeling present.

Leah: Oh, that’s so good. That’s so true. Mm-hmm. So again, it’s, it, it’s, I think it all keeps coming back to this ripple effect. [00:27:00] We’re seeing something and we’re doing the best we can as parents, but we’re seeing something and we’re only just starting to realize. These ripples. I mean, something as simple as they have a device at school, they have a hard moment and they text us and say, can you come pick me up?

Or, mm-hmm. Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this just happened. And maybe we do come pick ’em up. Maybe we intervene and we call the school and you know, we try to help them and that feels so good. It feels like I am, I am being an advocate for my child. I am being a good parent. Mm-hmm. And in some situations yes, that that may very much be what needs to happen.

Mm-hmm. But just in this conversation, we are now seeing how if we do that every time, if that becomes the default, that can rob them of friendships, it can rob them of their own ability to self. Soothe to self-regulate and it can rob them of building relationships with those adults. Yeah. [00:28:00] That can be another advocate in their life.

Nicki: Yeah, absolutely. That’s why a lot of states are banning phones, belt to belt in schools and I mean, dozen plus now. Um, and a lot more are, are taking a look at that legislation, so we’re realizing the. Issues. They’re really, really tough issues when kids have access to any, um, any technology at school, smartwatch, smartphone.

And so they’re starting to take them away from the kids or lock them up all day long and allow the kids to learn and to engage face-to-face, and so parents can make that choice for them. The safer, healthier choice by not sending them to school with the device. 

Leah: Yeah, and, and it is gonna be hard. I think it’s very real that your child is going to tell you that you are the worst and that it is the worst.

Yeah. And that they are the only one and they’re right. Mm-hmm. Like it is so hard. I work with youth all the time, and I will tell you, I see them almost all on their phones. And I see the kid who comes [00:29:00] in with no phone. And they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do. Everyone else is looking at a phone, like, how do I even approach and engage?

And yeah. Um, we’ve had a lot of conversations like with the youth that I work with. I’ve had a lot of conversations about how when you’re looking at a phone, you are not approachable. You look like, you’re like, don’t bug me. Mm-hmm. And so you’re sitting there lonely. What you want is someone to come talk to you, to be your friend, and yet you’re closing those opportunities and closing those doors.

And is it awkward and uncomfortable to just be standing there and kinda like, oh, I look unsure? Yes. Yes, yes. It, it’s right. But is that the gateway to somebody coming over and. Being like, oh, you, you don’t look so sure. So I feel confident enough to come reach and say hello. Absolutely. 

Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. Parents too.

Parents. I just 

Leah: try to, so true. This is, this is across the board. This is adults, this is teens. This is all of us, yes. 

Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:00] And I think that the issues that come with being the one left out by not having that device, they’re not. As bad as what your kid deals with once they are given that device and your job as the parent increases a hundred fold, trying to protect them from these platforms that are built to addict and harm them.

So it’s, it’s a hard choice to have them be the one left out, but it’s the safer choice. It’s a healthier choice. And your job is not to be their friend. Your job is to keep them safe. 

Leah: Yeah, absolutely. So my last question for you is. Tech habits for us as parents. Mm-hmm. What do you feel that we need to do?

Is this a do as I say, not as I do? Is this an example? What do we need to do as parents within all of this? 

Nicki: Yeah. I think it’s mostly. I do as I do, you know, I have to do it, I have to mirror that [00:31:00] activity as well, which sucks. Um, but because, you know, a lot of us have jobs that we need to check in on and be available or other kids moving about.

So I think that it is never as an, as a parent using your phone passively in front of your children. And that means you’re not scrolling on Instagram, you’re not watching a show. You are not. Reading the news, like, you know, not for work. I think it’s no passive, no, no games, you know, no passive use in front of your kids.

And I think if you need to use it for something productive work, family-wise, you narrate what you’re doing so that your kid understands that it can be used as a tool and you are now using it as a tool. Um, but then when you’re done, you’re gonna put it down and put it away. And I think. Putting it down and putting it away means out of your, per, like, off of your person, as far away from you as possible, turn the, the ringer on so you can hear it if someone calls.

Um, but I think that we got, [00:32:00] and I struggle with it too, you know, but because these platforms are so addictive to everyone, but we really have to try not to use it passively in front of our kids. Um. I think for parents, you know, there was a recent study that we all know, we all know screen time is bad before bed and it makes it harder to sleep, but there was a study that showed that the worst type of screen time before bed is doom scrolling on social media.

Oh, interesting. And so it’s trying not to do the Instagram scrolling or the YouTube short scrolling before bed. And I know when I do that, like it’s harder for me to fall asleep. I feel worse falling asleep. And so, um, yeah. And then just. Someone told me recently, Ellen, with this one, someone said, I, I think they have teenagers.

I’ll get my kids together and I’ll, you know, to talk about screen time, but I’ll tell ’em I wanna talk about my screen time as the adult. So I want them to tell me how they think I’m doing with my screen time. And so they have a discussion about is mom using their, her phone too much in front of them and how that makes them feel.

And [00:33:00] so, and then it obviously turns into a discussion about everyone’s screen time, but really. Realizing and being honest about what, how much you’re using it, and. Involving your child in that conversation that the goal is to use it as less as possible, as least as possible, and use it as a tool. And that’s hard for adults too.

And so it’s like can be an open, honest conversation between everyone. 

Leah: I think that is so powerful and it can be hard to hear, but it opens a door and a vulnerability and can help us make such a difference. In 2018, I decided to take a 10 day break. From social media. Mm-hmm. So it was a 10 day break from fake.

It was actually our youth that were invited to do this 10 day social media detox. Mm-hmm. And I was, um, uh, one of the leaders. And so I was like, you know what, I’ll just, I’ll do it with them. Yeah. I don’t have a problem, but I’m gonna do this with them so that I can like, support them. Right, right. I almost didn’t.

Remove the apps. I almost [00:34:00] was like, oh, I’ll just not be on it. And then I was like, no, I, I’m, I’ll just delete ’em. And my whole reasoning was like, I don’t even know my passwords. It will take me forever to get back into these things. Yeah. But I’m like, no, I’m gonna delete ’em. So it was, it was 10 days. I could not believe the difference that I felt over those 10 days.

Mm-hmm. In fact, I had preparing for this episode. I had gone and found the original podcast from June of 2000 and, or, uh, blog posts from June of 2018. Mm-hmm. When I talked about it, and I said, as the days went by, I noticed significant changes in how I felt, what I was accomplishing, and in my relationship with my kiddos and my hubby.

Yeah. Life felt easier, I felt happier, more engaged. Aged in life and more inspired, I couldn’t believe it, but believe this, all of it, because I wasn’t on social media. Mm-hmm. And I think about that. So, so I got done with it and I shared it with a girlfriend who, um, her and I know each other. We’ve spoke at a lot of the same conferences.

She has a huge social media platform. I mean, this is a [00:35:00] huge part of her mm-hmm. Income. Mm-hmm. Is her social media. Yeah. And I was telling her about it, and she’s like, I think I wanna try it. And, and so she decided to go off and. Same thing. She is texting me and like, I can’t believe how much I’m getting done.

I can’t believe how creative I am. She’s an artist. And she’s like, my creativity has gone through the roof, even though I thought like, oh, I’m looking for inspiration and mm-hmm. So then we ended up, in the end, we decided to go to our audiences and we decided to invite them to do this as well. And we, and we, you know, we had thousands who did it with us, and we surveyed them each day for the, for the 10 days.

Mm-hmm. And asked them how they were feeling and all these things, and. I, I will totally admit it. I sobbed when I read some of these answers. Oh no. Because they were talking about how, I remember one woman saying she had looked in the mirror and didn’t hate herself for the first time. Oh my God. And she couldn’t remember how long.

And another woman said, we actually sat down and ate dinner as a family together. And another [00:36:00] woman said, my kids have been so much happier. I didn’t realize how much. Time I was stealing from them. Mm-hmm. Because of my phone. Yeah. And so this, this is, this is a we problem and I think it’s easy to feel guilt and shame and to think, you know, maybe.

I’m the only one who mm-hmm. Has this addiction, but they’re designed to be addictive. Yeah. And they’re very good at what they do. 

Nicki: And that’s the most important part is it’s not our fault that we’ve been, the, the choice hasn’t been taken away from us. We are not given a choice anymore. The way that they’ve integrated.

Wholly into our lives and our social lives and our personal lives, and our family lives doesn’t give us a choice., The addictive features they choose to use to keep us on and keep us scrolling, it’s nearly impossible to resist it. And so. That’s why I work really hard to get laws [00:37:00] passed to require these companies to not be as addictive.

And right now we’re focusing on children and the the experience for minors. But this very much is a conversation that’s gonna extend to adults and. And our, I mean, we would be so much happier just as, as it is now without these platforms entirely, but like allow there to be for other platforms to come into the market that don’t addict us.

And there are entrepreneurs building these platforms, but right now there’s like a monopoly, but between a few platforms that have now some kind of political leverage too. And it’s just, it’s not fair, but it’s also not. And so we can do, do the best you can as a parent, um, but give yourself some grace too, I think is important.

I, 

Leah: I love that. Absolutely. And I think, you know, just realizing we surveyed, uh, when we did the survey, we asked education level, income level, all these things. Average education was a master’s. Average income for these women [00:38:00] was six figures and above. I mean, if there’s anyone you think. Would be able to handle social media and technology.

Nicki: Yeah. 

Leah: I’m gonna go ahead and just say it’s this demographic. You have a bunch of moms who, you know, try to manage it all, have great education. Mm-hmm. And to read their answers. And I think that that just solidifies to me that if we, with our, our fully developed brains, our educations are million things that are asked of us if we are struggling.

To manage our technology habits. Our kids don’t stand a chance. 

Nicki: No. And 

Leah: so we need to step in and mm-hmm. And help them. 

Nicki: Yeah. We can be addicted, I think to the, to productivity. Right? Like highly productive women moms. Yes. So we’re addicted to the productivity, so we always have to be doing something and, but then when you’re on social media, it’s like this [00:39:00] endless, pointless, meaningless, like you’re not getting anything done.

You’re actually wasting time, but you’re kind of feeling like, oh, I just need to zone out for a second. Yeah, but then you feel worse at the end. So we just need to be really honest with how we feel after, and the fact that if we wanna be productive, successful women, that’s not helping us at all towards that goal.

Leah: Yes. Oh, amen. Yeah. Nikki, thank you so much for having this conversation with me and chatting with us. Where can everybody find you? 

Nicki: Sure. So scrolling to death.com with a number two. And, uh, everything’s there. The podcast, um, social media links, email, all that info. 

Leah: Amazing. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Leah. 

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