Dr Camilo: [00:00:00] I sort of espoused this Goldilocks scenario, which might sound too good to be true. But the scenario is you can do a lot less as a parent and actually get better results. 

Leah: Welcome back to the Balancing Busy Podcast. I am so excited about this guest. You guys just get ready. It is going to be amazing. So I have Dr. Camilo Ortiz with us today. I heard about him the second I heard about him. I was Googling and was like, how do I get him on the podcast? I want him on the [00:01:00] podcast.

Leah: As soon as I heard your story, I was like, Oh, we have to hear from you. So will you just start out? So tell everybody just a little bit about who you are and and then we’ll go from there. 

Dr Camilo: Sure, sure. So I’m an associate professor of psychology at Long Island University Post. We have several campuses at LIU and I’m the one actually on Long Island.

Dr Camilo: And, um, I also run, uh, a group private practice where we see kids, adults, teenagers, young adults. Um, my research has traditionally been in parenting and in disruptive behavior. But in the last five or so years, I have shifted my focus to parenting and anxiety as we have seen anxiety rates skyrocket across the country.

Dr Camilo: I have shifted my focus and I am the developer of what we call Independence Focus Therapy, IFT, which is a new and pretty different approach to [00:02:00] treating and preventing anxiety in kids. 

Leah: Okay, I, I know everybody is getting so excited because they’re like, wait, treating and preventing? Like, we can prevent this?

Leah: And so I’m, oh, I’m so excited to dig in. But before we get into it, We dig into all of the tools and strategies that I know you have. I really want people to hear about your personal story. Would you be willing to share a little bit about that? 

Dr Camilo: Sure. Sure. How far back should I go? 

Leah: All the way. Go all the way back.

Leah: Okay. 

Dr Camilo: Well, I was born in, in South America, in Columbia, despite, uh, the way I look, I, uh, am Colombian through and through and many generations before me. Um, and, um, my parents brought me to the United States when I was two years old. And, um, we were like many people in my situation. We came over on a tourist visa.

Dr Camilo: And my parents decided to stay. And [00:03:00] so that meant that I was here, uh, as an undocumented immigrant. And I grew up that way, not knowing that. I was only two. Um, and when I was a teenager, my mom, told me the truth. And so I had to go back to Colombia and stand online at the U. S. Embassy and hope that they would give me a green card.

Dr Camilo: Um, and if they had said no, I would have had to just stay in a country I didn’t really know. Um, but I remember having my New York Mets baseball cap and my Hunter College High School jacket. And when I walked in with my fluent English, the immigration agents thought it was very funny. And, um, I answered all their questions correctly, I guess, because I got a green card.

Dr Camilo: And then I subsequently became a citizen, and I am very happy to be in this country. That’s part of the story. 

Leah: Yeah, uh, amazing. And, and, I mean, you know, we’ll just be honest. Anyone watching the YouTube, [00:04:00] Sees you and they’re like, Oh, I didn’t see that coming, but you’re from Columbia. So, um, it was so fun.

Leah: Okay. So you go through, you’re going to school and everything. You choose this focus that you did for so long. And then you made this shift five years ago because you’re seeing the rampant. Anxiety that is cropping up everywhere that we’ve all seen. I mean, we all either know someone struggling with anxiety or we are ourselves and certainly we’re seeing it.

Leah: If it’s not in our own kids, it’s in their friends and their peers. And you know, it just seems to be everywhere. Will you first speak to. Why is that? Like, I don’t I think you’re you’ve been under a rock if you have not recognized and acknowledged like this didn’t seem to be this rampant when we were kids, right?

Leah: Like this was not everyone always talking about anxiety. So where do you think this stems from? 

Dr Camilo: Well, there are not [00:05:00] simple answers and we can’t exactly run randomized control trials where we make certain people live a certain life and other people live a different life. So this is all based on sort of correlational evidence.

Dr Camilo: But you know, my my friend Jonathan Haidt has made a very good argument that a big piece of this is because of the use of smartphones and of social media. In addition to the what I would call an epic epidemic of over parenting, and we can get into Why it is that stepping in constantly actually causes more anxiety because it might be sort of counterintuitive because in the short term it lowers anxiety when you step in and fix a problem.

Dr Camilo: But my contention is that we are sort of creating a long term problem. Yeah, while we’re getting a short term benefit. Um, so, you know, it’s been [00:06:00] called helicopter parenting, and there’s lots of objective data to suggest that parents are spending much more time and money with their kids. And also, they’re doing fewer things without their kids.

Dr Camilo: So things like exercising, exercising. Yeah. And going to restaurants and shopping used to be an adult only activity for a lot of the time, and it’s really not anymore. And so kids really are never outside of of our view. And, you know, uh, that for lots of reasons can can interfere with proper development.

Leah: Amen. So you mentioned, um, Jonathan’s book, Anxious Generation and like, well, I’m going to say the title in case anyone hasn’t read it. Cause I feel like it should be required reading. Like everyone needs to read this book. Um, and it’s so powerful and, and exploring these ideas that it is multifaceted. It’s not.

Leah: One thing we like, does smartphones and social media have a part in [00:07:00] it? Absolutely. But is it the only thing? No, there’s a lot of different factors that have all mixed together to create this very obvious problem. And I have done a lot of episodes on phones, social media, and our kids. So I will make sure I’m just going to say this now.

Leah: I’ll make sure they’re all linked in the show notes for everybody. I’ve talked about. You know, what we did with our kids, which is they didn’t get phones till 14. They got one social media app at 16, but it was on my phone, not their phone. So they don’t have full, always access. And, you know, and then how we stewarded them into them having it on their own phone, their senior years so that they could practice.

Leah: So I’ll link to those episodes. Um, the part that I’m really excited to talk to you about and go a little deeper in is this idea of. backing off and not being so involved as parents. And I want to talk to you about this because I, I can tell you for me personally, [00:08:00] when I was backing off, I felt guilty.

Leah: Like I feel, I felt like I wasn’t being a good enough mom if I didn’t come smooth the path and help them out and talk them through everything. Right. Like. And the only reason those things really happened is because I’m also a working mom. There were just times where I literally had to be like, Sorry, mom can’t.

Leah: Go figure it out on your own. If I’m being honest, I think that had I had all the time available, I would have saved every problem. I would have stepped in, you know, even more than I did. So, can you kind of talk to us about why we need to untangle these feelings of guilt and why it’s actually hurting our kids?

Dr Camilo: Yeah. So this is this has been a cultural shift that has been in the makings for a very long time, but it’s really in the last 20 years where it has accelerated. And some have called this intensive mothering ideology or intensive parenting ideology. And it’s this cultural idea that That more parenting means better parenting.

Dr Camilo: So, the way that we judge how good a [00:09:00] parent is, is how much effort they are putting into their parenting work. And, again, in the short term, that, that can sort of bring immediate benefits, but, and there are advantages to parental involvement, in terms of academic achievement and things like that. But what I’m more interested in is, is this interruption of development.

Dr Camilo: And so I talk a lot about what I call the four D’s and these are four things that kids. One way to think about adulting is mastery over these four things. And so we have distress, um, disappointment, discomfort and danger. So kids need to learn. To handle these four things and, and the only way they will learn to handle these four things is with lots of practice with these four things.

Dr Camilo: And so when we step in, we deprive children of practice with the four D’s, and so they’re just not as good. [00:10:00] at these things as they used to be. And so for the first time, many kids, I just sent my son off to college for the first time in a different country. Talk about independence. But this is, you know, for him and for many other kids, his age is the first time they’ve had to really have Mega doses of these four D’s on their own without a parent there to step in.

Dr Camilo: And so they’re just relatively weaker at them, and it’s my contention. This is not good for them. And so I sort of espoused this Goldilocks scenario, which might sound too good to be true. But the scenario is you can do a lot less as a parent and actually get better results. You know, we are past the point of diminishing returns with the amount of effort.

Dr Camilo: Parents are putting into parenting. 

Leah: I mean hearing that you can do a lot less and get better results as a parent I think every parent is simultaneously a hundred percent relieved because we also are in [00:11:00] You know, this culture of overscheduling to, you know, just a level that is, is putting people in burnout and overwhelm all the time.

Leah: You know, I, I know so many moms and I’m listening to their schedules of trying to get their kids to all the different activities and places and things, and I’m just like, It makes me want to go hide under my desk. I can’t even imagine. So, you know, this idea we can do a lot less and get better results.

Leah: It’s, it’s exciting. It’s, it’s very enticing. So what does that actually look like? 

Dr Camilo: Yeah, there are, there are hundreds of ways to do less and get better results. And I’ll tell you one that I worked with Parents on today, which is not staying during Little League practice. So how many times a week have we all done this?

Dr Camilo: It’s freezing. Usually at the beginning of the season, it’s multiple hours. not only is that a waste of time, [00:12:00] it actually is an opportunity for conflict. And so many times parents will be lecturing kids during practice and kids will get mad at them. And then the ride home is a disaster. Feel free to drop your kids off.

Dr Camilo: That’s what the coaches are there to do. I’m a big fan of outsourcing parenting to the world, right? And so there’s just a million opportunities. So I’ll give you another one from a couple days ago. Where did this idea that kids need? Uh, a bath every single day come from. I don’t know where that’s written.

Dr Camilo: Uh, there’s lots of reasons why from a, uh, uh, sort of germ perspective that that’s not a good idea. 

Leah: Yeah. 

Dr Camilo: So. So I sometimes, I just put it out there as a thought experiment to parents. What would happen if we stopped making bath commands? And so many parents think, well, they would never take a bath. And maybe that’s true.

Dr Camilo: And so maybe that’s not the thing that we do with your [00:13:00] family. But what I have found is that if you sharply reduce those sorts of commands, kids don’t want to be dirty. And so they will occasionally say, can I take a bath tonight? So maybe it’s not every night. But now suddenly you have half an hour. of what would have been stress to yourself.

Dr Camilo: And this idea of like being more of a selfish parent I’m a big fan of because it actually is good for your kids if you have a life outside of, you know, getting them to do stuff. So there’s a lot of stuff that I just ask my clients. Um, you know, based upon your values and sometimes the parent will say, I value a bath every single night.

Dr Camilo: And so I will say, let’s not touch that. But many times parents will say, I don’t know where I got this idea that we have to do. Do this for half an hour every single night or sitting down and doing two hours of homework with your child for 18 straight years. I don’t know where that came from. 

Leah: This 

Dr Camilo: is another opportunity to outsource that to teachers and tutors [00:14:00] and things like that.

Dr Camilo: So there’s there’s a million of 

Leah: my mind is, you know, as you’re saying these ideas, my mind is going further and I’m laughing because some of these I implemented, but not because I was being it. intentional, it more just needed to happen, right? So tutors, uh, my kids, I have paid for tutors for years and years because, well, I’m dyslexic and I have ADHD and I shouldn’t be doing math with them.

Leah: It’s just a bad idea. Like I had to tap out at math a lot of years ago with them, especially as they started changing the way you did it. And I would just get so frustrated. I’m like, this is stupid. This is the better way to do it. If this is efficient. And they’re like, no, mom, you have to do it this way.

Leah: And I’m like, Nevermind, hands are up, I’m done. So, you know, like getting to kind of outsource some of these things. As you were talking about those four Ds, distress, disappointment, discomfort, danger, and inherently, and I think with this culture of this kind of over parenting and believing that the more involved I am, the [00:15:00] better parent I am.

Leah: We hear these words and, and associate them with negativity. And then therefore we should protect them from that. And I’m thinking about how, and I think anyone. Our age can relate to this. I’m thinking about how when I was a kid, and I wanted to play with the neighborhood kid, I ran over to their house by myself, and I went and knocked on the door.

Leah: And it was distressing. Because I didn’t know what Who was going to answer the door? Was it going to be mom who was usually really sweet? Would it be dad who was scary? Right? And that felt kind of dangerous, even though it never was. Um, right. Was I going to be disappointed because they said no, they haven’t done their homework, they haven’t done their chores, right?

Leah: Or whatever it might be. And 

Dr Camilo: sorry to interrupt, but it is precisely this uncertainty and learning to tolerate and handle uncertainty. That is kind of the active ingredient that we are depriving kids of. So one of the independence activities that I have as part of my treatment is for [00:16:00] kids to go to the supermarket on their own and with a list of things by, you know, by, by some things.

Dr Camilo: And that often includes going to the cold cut counter and maybe the guy behind it is grumpy that day, or he doesn’t have the exact time. boar’s head genoa salami you want, or you have the wrong change. And it’s this kind of uncertainty that is actually really, really important for kids to have practice with.

Dr Camilo: And when we do everything for them, we subtract all the uncertainty and then they suck at it basically. Right. And then they’re so 

Leah: anxious because you put them in any situation that has an element of uncertainty and they fall apart because they don’t know what to do with that uncertainty. Yeah. 

Dr Camilo: That’s right.

Leah: So, okay, so I love the grocery store idea. So, like, making them make phone calls for themselves. Uh, they can make the doctor’s appointment. They can call and order the takeout or the pizza, you know, for dinner. They can, I’ve often said that to my kids. Like, they’re like, will you [00:17:00] please get us, you know, Thai food or something.

Leah: I’m like, if you make the phone call. And it’s hilarious because when they were younger, I had one who was like, never mind, don’t want it bad enough. Okay, fine. You’re not going to get that. Well, 

Dr Camilo: so that’s such a good example because they’re so motivated. Food is such a great motivator. If they want something, take out, then you can, and I love the way you sort of, the, the attitude, which is a nonchalant attitude.

Dr Camilo: You can have Thai food if you make a call, you know, I don’t really care if we have it or not. And, and when you sort of, you know, Project that that you’re not you don’t care that much and you’re not going to jump in and fix it They will tend to rise to the occasion and do some of these things and there are so many Independence activities we have a list of over a hundred that we show To to anxious kids and we basically say which one of these would you like to do?

Dr Camilo: And i’ve never had an anxious kid who didn’t want to do at least one of them and that’s the treatment actually is an independence activity every single day for a few weeks. And we’re finding that kids who do [00:18:00] this have sharp decreases in their anxiety. 

Leah: Okay, so what you’re talking about now is behavioral activation.

Leah: Is that right? 

Dr Camilo: Well, behavioral activation is a broader term that is often used with, with people who are depressed. When people are depressed, they tend to stay inside and not do things. So we can call my independence therapy a kind of behavioral activation. Okay, right. 

Leah: It would be a form. 

Dr Camilo: A form. But basically, it’s pretty simple.

Dr Camilo: It’s literally just behavior. Pulling out a calendar and based upon the list that I have, or I just asked kids, what are things you would like to do independently that you don’t do right now? We get parental permission for everything. They have veto power, but we just are writing in one independence activity every single day on the calendar, and they can be really simple things, you know, like making toast by yourself, or they can be Taking, you know, I’m in New York City, so taking the New York City subway from one place to another.

Dr Camilo: But the important thing is that there not [00:19:00] be parents or adults there, because they will inadvertently ruin the independence activities. Even their presence, when things don’t go exactly right, kids will immediately turn to them. Right for help. And so we actually need adults to not be there. Now, kids can do it with other kids.

Dr Camilo: So going to the pizza place and ordering a slice with you and a couple of friends. That’s a great independence activity. But we’re trying to pull adults out of these interactions. 

Leah: I love this idea of letting them decide. I mean, that feels so doable and manageable that every single one of us could go to our kids and say, What’s something you’d like to do on your own, right?

Leah: And then and then we we gauge and decide like, you know If but then we have to get braver at letting them do these hard things. 

Dr Camilo: It’s not easy. 

Leah: Yeah 

Dr Camilo: Treatment for both parent and child. 

Leah: That’s what I’m thinking cuz I’m like, you know being it being brave enough as the parent To say, okay, I’m going to let you [00:20:00] go take the bus or I’m going to let you go out with your friends and I’m not going to be there or whatever.

Leah: I mean, cause they’re probably going to, depending on the age, of course. Um, but you know, if they’re a bit older, that’s more probably the direction they’re thinking sounds pretty fun. So what counsel do you have for parents who are like, They’re, they’re starting to think about white knuckling and getting a little nervous about letting go.

Dr Camilo: So we do a, the first session of independence therapy is only with parents because we really need to get a lot of buy in and we recognize how difficult this is and I remember the first family that we ran through the treatment The, the mom had to take the day off from work when her son was walking home from school by himself because she was so anxious.

Dr Camilo: But by the second day, it was, she was doing much better. And by the third day, it was no problem. So, this is one important thing to know, that like many things, the first couple of days are really hard. And after that, it gets much easier. We show parents this video on YouTube [00:21:00] called Off the Rails, and I encourage your, your listeners to, to watch it.

Dr Camilo: It’s about a nine minute video, um, uh, made by a wonderful filmmaker named John Popola. And it’s about, um, one of the people who have been involved in, in the free range parenting, um, Movement. Her name is Lenore Skenazy, and she kind of started everything when she let her son take the subway by himself when he was nine years old in New York City, and she’s now the president of Let Grow, which is an organization that encourages independence in kids, and she and I work together a lot on these projects.

Dr Camilo: But we show parents this video, and it’s very powerful, and it shows them the advantages and disadvantages. Of independence, even on the societal level, like what makes America great is the fact that we are risk takers and we are immigrants and we come here and we do the hard things. And so if we were to get rid of all of that, would we [00:22:00] be?

Dr Camilo: And so I think these are important questions and they get parents thinking and it’s actually not as hard as you might imagine, because I just asked parents a pretty simple question. I say, What are some of the most meaningful memories you have as a child? And they are always independence activities.

Dr Camilo: It’s, I, my friends and I explore this thing on our own, and we felt so grown up. And then I will ask parents, would you allow your child to do those things? And they will always say no. And so then I will just, not in an I told you so kind of way, but just a curious way. So these are the, the most meaningful memories.

Dr Camilo: Memories of your childhood, but you won’t allow your child to do that Tell me more about that and that starts to create a little cognitive dissonance And then it opens them up to some of the things that we call independence activities And it’s been pretty easy actually to get parents because they recognize that what’s going on here is not sustainable 

Leah: No, right.

Leah: Absolutely. Oh, [00:23:00] I love this. Okay, so We will have the off the rails video in the show notes. We’ll have these prompts too, because I’m thinking like this is a great exercise for any parent to just journal, right? Okay. What were the most meaningful things to me when I was a kid, I lived in downtown Seattle, and one of the things that is instantly coming to my mind is that we used to take the, it’s doesn’t even exist, but there was a trolley and, and as kids, we would take this trolley.

Leah: From where we lived all the way to Pike Place Market, and we would just explore all over, go to the magic shop, play around, and then ride it back, and yeah, like, we felt so grown up, and so amazing, and all those things. So, 

Dr Camilo: that makes so much sense. I’ve seen those trolley tracks, but I’ve never seen a trolley.

Dr Camilo: Have you? And why? 

Leah: Yeah, yeah. So there used to be a trolley back when I was a kid and we totally took it and would have so much fun. I mean, yeah, now my mind’s thinking the other thing we used to do is we take all the change out of my dad’s change bowl and we would go and rent, uh, [00:24:00] kayaks or canoes by ourselves on Lake Union and we’d be out there doing this canoes.

Leah: I can’t tell you how many times we were paddling for our lives because the seaplane was coming in and we were in the way. And we were 

Dr Camilo: like, trying to get 

Leah: out of the way. And guess what? I survived. I’m still here. We’re all still here. Well, this is one 

Dr Camilo: of the four D’s, which is danger. And I put a little in parentheses mild because we want to not be unnecessarily dangerous, but kids need experience with danger.

Dr Camilo: And A lot of the independence activities purposely involve some danger. So one of the things we do is like whittling a stick with a knife. You can cut yourself. Or making something in an oven. Or using the burners or, or a toaster oven. You can burn yourself. Kids actually need occasionally to get that feedback.

Dr Camilo: Oh, if you touch that it’s really hot. No, no permanent damage. But it’s, it’s information that we are depriving them of when we cook everything for them. 

Leah: Yes. Okay. So this, all of [00:25:00] this keeps making me think about, I have this theory that true confidence comes from doing hard things and realizing how capable we are.

Leah: That that superficial confidence is people complimenting you and telling you great, but unfortunately, as soon as someone tells you you’re not great, it falls apart. Right. And so the way to truly have a true confidence, and I would say to be self reliant is to have done. Hard things because that you didn’t know you were capable of and you get to the other side and you’re like, oh my gosh, wow, I’m more powerful than I thought.

Leah: Now, I have no letters in front of my name and you do have letters in front of your name. So I want to hear you 

Dr Camilo: make me any smarter, 

Leah: but I want to hear your take on that. Like, are you seeing that? And, and how do we. Introduce more of that at the different stages, right? So when they’re really little, that, I don’t know, three to maybe six or seven.

Leah: And then as they’re getting into more of the kid [00:26:00] ages, eight to 11, 12, and then when they’re getting into the teenage years. 

Dr Camilo: Well, I get lots of calls from parents to my private practice. And one of the things that they want my help with is they will say, I want my child to have higher self esteem. And so this is a perfect opportunity to explain what you just said, which is there are no words.

Dr Camilo: that I, with all my training, can tell a child that will increase their self esteem. There are no words that any adult could tell a child. The only way to increase self esteem is, as you said, to do really hard things and to succeed at them. And, and in, in dependence therapy, kids will often do things that don’t turn out the way they expected.

Dr Camilo: So one example is we had a little girl who, at nine years old, she wanted to take the bus to school by herself in downtown Brooklyn, and she also had not been sleeping in her own bed. [00:27:00] So she’s on this bus and she missed her her exit the first time, and she was kind of getting agitated. And there was this woman next to her who said What’s wrong?

Dr Camilo: And she said, I think that was my stop. And so then the woman said, Well, just get out here and it’s two more extra blocks. And so the little girl did that, and she went to school and that that night she marched in and said, I’m sleeping in my own bed tonight, and we had not talked about this. And so I said to her when I met her the next week.

Dr Camilo: What made you sleep in your own bed? And she said, Well, I took a bus and I didn’t even do it right, but I figured out exactly what to do. And so I felt really grown up and I felt like I can handle things. And so sleeping in the bed didn’t seem so hard anymore. So when I’m sort of secretly rooting sometimes for independence activities to go wrong occasionally, because that’s where you get the stretching of someone’s, uh, capabilities and their self esteem when things don’t go perfectly, but they still [00:28:00] figure it out.

Dr Camilo: So maybe, you know, I think what I’m saying is just a more Complicated version of what you said, which is that we have to do hard things and those things don’t always go well 

Leah: because you just gave parents permission to know that, like, if it goes wrong, they didn’t just do the worst thing. You know what I’m saying?

Leah: Like, like, that gives me so much permission and I hope it gives everybody listening. There’s so much permission to be like, let them try and don’t even feel like we’re going to take on the responsibility as the parent that we failed. If their experiment goes wrong and realizing that just like us. We, we, you know, tried and tried and tried and some things failed and, and I think there’s, there’s importance in that.

Leah: I mean, that’s that disappointment element, right? Like, if every single thing works out, then we’re never gonna need to be disappointed. And that’s a recipe for disaster because that is not grown up life. Grown up life has all kinds of disappointments. Kids 

Dr Camilo: need to be disappointed a lot. And again, this is very different than what we hear, [00:29:00] um, but yeah, there’s, there’s a ton of scientific evidence that things not going well are actually good for people.

Dr Camilo: So before my independence therapy, the main way to treat anxiety disorders was something called exposure therapy. And all that is, is whatever you’re afraid of, you get exposed to it and you, and you do it a lot. And there is lots of evidence that occasionally you want these exposures to kind of go wrong Because it tests a very different prediction that people make, which is that I won’t be able to handle it if things don’t go well when we do expect, like, let’s say you’re afraid of spiders and we’re like playing with tarantulas in my office and they never bite you, then you’re going to learn something about how dangerous spiders are.

Dr Camilo: And maybe you don’t want a tarantula to bite you, but there could be an example of of an exposure going wrong. Like maybe it scurries away from you for a second and we need those kinds of mixed outcomes in order to increase our psychological [00:30:00] flexibility, which is ultimately One of the most powerful predictors of well being is when you can be psychologically flexible, which means that you have experience with things not going well.

Leah: Yeah. Oh, I love that because it’s so true. The ability to pivot, right? The ability to adapt and change and pivot. And when we step in and we Set up the playdates, we get involved with the teacher, we go talk to the coaches. But right when we constantly get involved to try to smooth the path, thinking that we’re, that we’re being a good parent, that we’re that good involved, you know, part of their life parent, we end up taking away their faith in themselves that That they can they can figure out how to handle this or the practice to learn that they can handle these things So 

Dr Camilo: so that’s another one stop emailing your kids [00:31:00] teachers and asking for you know Extra time if they want to ask for extra time they can do that 

Leah: Okay.

Leah: So how, how do we get over the fear as the parent that my kids grades matter so much? It’s how they’re going to get into a good college. I’m going to tell them to step in and that they need to ask their teacher, but then they’re not going to ask their teacher and that you know exactly where this is going.

Leah: I know you’ve heard parents say it a million times. Absolutely. How do you help them through that? 

Dr Camilo: Well, even if our goal is the highest possible grades, I am saying that My approach is still the way to do that. Because over time, you know, we have 12 years of schooling before college. If you’re stepping in every time when they’re in 1st grade, in 2nd grade, in 3rd grade, they’re going to lose that skill.

Dr Camilo: There’s not sort of like a critical time like we have with language, but that skill of reaching out and advocating for yourself can weaken over time. And so, we might initially have a few worse grades if we don’t step in. But most kids will [00:32:00] then fill that void because they, if they care at all about grades, if they don’t care at all, that’s a different story.

Dr Camilo: But if they care even a little, then they will start doing some of this work and advocating for themselves. And in the end, I think you get even better grades. Because it’s just not sustainable for a parent. And I certainly, you know, I teach doctoral students and I have had the experience of parents emailing me.

Dr Camilo: These are people who are a couple of years away from being, you know, a doctoral level psychologist. And so that can’t be good. That can’t 

Leah: be good. That’s shocking. I would have never guessed that. Um, okay. Okay. So we’re trying to step back. We’re trying to let them have their own experiences, get to choose some of those experiences for themselves.

Leah: Some will, will naturally come because of, you know, just the, the ages and stages and, and we can help them with those. I want to, I want to shift and talk about like  This is a two [00:33:00] part episode, which is why all of a sudden it’s just. stopping, or it’s about to. So you just listened to part one. Now we’re going to keep going in, and I’m going to make this shift where I’m going to ask about when there’s acute anxiety. We’re also going to talk about how you know if your child does need therapy or not, and a whole slew of other things to help us help our kids to feel less anxious.

Leah: And of course, there’s going to be some great tips that we can take on ourselves as well. Let’s jump into part two. Now, 

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